FA: Canon EOS 5D

http://snipr.com/CanonEOS5D

Dave Cohen

2007-09-05 15:12:06 UTC

Post by Mark
http://snipr.com/CanonEOS5D

I have no interest in purchasing a canon eos5d. I would love to use one
for a while, but my photographic interests could never justify such a
purchase.
However, if I were to have such an interest I'm sure bidding for one on
ebay would be the ideal way to go, after touring the neighborhood to
make sure there wasn't a yard sale on one somewhere.
Dave Cohen

just bob

2007-09-05 15:34:02 UTC

Post by Dave Cohen

Post by Mark
http://snipr.com/CanonEOS5D

I have no interest in purchasing a canon eos5d. I would love to use one
for a while, but my photographic interests could never justify such a
purchase.

A year ago when the double-rebates were on I had a 5D for a while but sold
on ebay it as it was not going to replace my 1D (a used 1D2N did that, for
the same price) and the lack of a pop-up flash didn't make it a good general
use walk-around camera (my old 300D does that OK). However, IMO, the IQ on
the 5D was bettered only by the 1D3 or 1Ds2 so I wouldn't mind having one
for occasional use if the price was say $1000. Of course for the studio pro
who can't justify a 1Ds2 and/or doesn't need the build-quality of a 1-series
body, it is the best available camera, even for a lot of people with Nikon
glass.

Wolfgang Weisselberg

2007-09-05 21:58:56 UTC

Post by just bob
A year ago when the double-rebates were on I had a 5D for a while but sold
on ebay it as it was not going to replace my 1D (a used 1D2N did that, for
the same price) and the lack of a pop-up flash didn't make it a good general
use walk-around camera (my old 300D does that OK).

Fancy that! I think I've used the pop-up flash maybe three times,
twice to just see if it worked and once to check for that old
"streaks" bug.

If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

-Wolfgang

frederick

2007-09-05 23:41:12 UTC

Fancy that! I think I've used the pop-up flash maybe three times,
twice to just see if it worked and once to check for that old
"streaks" bug.
If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for
catch light or fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to
put such an "amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's
a cop-out for Canon and Nikon not to include a pop-up flash
in their pro cameras.

acl

2007-09-06 00:03:15 UTC

Post by frederick
Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for
catch light or fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to
put such an "amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's
a cop-out for Canon and Nikon not to include a pop-up flash
in their pro cameras.

That may be true, but I personally would prefer it if my D200 had no
flash. I've used it only to check that it works (I don't like flash,
and don't know how to use fill-in flash effectively anyway-I don't
want to learn either, I'm afraid). I cycle at least 10-15km every day
with the camera hanging from its strap on my side, and it's happened
that I popped it up by mistake without realising it. It also happened
once while putting it in a bag. If that happens and I manage to break
it, the camera will have to be sent for repairs! So I'd rather it
didn't have it (or at least had some way of locking it down)... I
mean, the camera is an absolute tank, but it can become almost useless
just by shearing off a little plastic popup flash, supported by two
plastic legs... Stupid.

It has crossed my mind to just glue the thing closed...

just bob

2007-09-06 22:31:30 UTC

Post by acl

That may be true, but I personally would prefer it if my D200 had no
flash. I've used it only to check that it works (I don't like flash,
and don't know how to use fill-in flash effectively anyway-I don't
want to learn either, I'm afraid). I cycle at least 10-15km every day
with the camera hanging from its strap on my side, and it's happened
that I popped it up by mistake without realising it. It also happened
once while putting it in a bag. If that happens and I manage to break
it, the camera will have to be sent for repairs! So I'd rather it
didn't have it (or at least had some way of locking it down)... I
mean, the camera is an absolute tank, but it can become almost useless
just by shearing off a little plastic popup flash, supported by two
plastic legs... Stupid.
It has crossed my mind to just glue the thing closed...

I've seen a lot of pros do just that to theirs with gaffers tape.

DoN. Nichols

2007-09-07 00:01:53 UTC

According to acl <***@yahoo.co.uk>:

[ ... ]

Post by acl
I cycle at least 10-15km every day
with the camera hanging from its strap on my side, and it's happened
that I popped it up by mistake without realising it. It also happened
once while putting it in a bag.

Hmm ... The Nikon D70 at least will not pop up the flash unless
the camera is turned on. The actual latch is controlled by a solenoid,
not directly by the button.

And as long as you stay out of "Auto" mode, it won't pop up on
its own when you try to take a shot. Every once in a while, the knob
rubs on something and when I start to press the shutter release I will
hear it pop up, and will immediately shove it back down, and turn back
to "Program" It will also pop up in some of the "special" modes, which I
never use, but never in Program, Aperture, Shutter, or full Manual. In
any of those modes, you have to reach forward and hit the button on the
left side of the prism housing.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <***@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

acl

2007-09-07 00:06:01 UTC

Post by DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]

Hmm ... The Nikon D70 at least will not pop up the flash unless
the camera is turned on. The actual latch is controlled by a solenoid,
not directly by the button.
And as long as you stay out of "Auto" mode, it won't pop up on
its own when you try to take a shot. Every once in a while, the knob
rubs on something and when I start to press the shutter release I will
hear it pop up, and will immediately shove it back down, and turn back
to "Program" It will also pop up in some of the "special" modes, which I
never use, but never in Program, Aperture, Shutter, or full Manual. In
any of those modes, you have to reach forward and hit the button on the
left side of the prism housing.

Well, in the D200, it's mechanical, so it can pop up even with the
camera off. Anyway, sometimes I leave the switch to on, since the
camera goes to sleep by itself. I don't know if it pops up by itself
in program, but I suspect not (as I said, it's mechanical: you can see
the latch moving if you press the button with the flash up).

Matt Clara

2007-09-06 02:16:51 UTC

Post by just bob
A year ago when the double-rebates were on I had a 5D for a while but
sold on ebay it as it was not going to replace my 1D (a used 1D2N did
that, for the same price) and the lack of a pop-up flash didn't make it
a good general use walk-around camera (my old 300D does that OK).

Fancy that! I think I've used the pop-up flash maybe three times,
twice to just see if it worked and once to check for that old
"streaks" bug.
If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for catch light or
fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to put such an
"amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's a cop-out for Canon and
Nikon not to include a pop-up flash in their pro cameras.

No, pop up flash sucks for everything except sucky family shots from sucky
photographers. Period. I have the D200, and wouldn't use the pop up except
for shots I could give two shits about (even then, I'd just up the ISO). If
you want pop up flash, shoot with point and shoots, otherwise, you're
wasting your time.

--
www.mattclara.com

DoN. Nichols

2007-09-06 02:45:04 UTC

According to Matt Clara <***@buzz.off>:

[ ... ]

Post by Matt Clara
No, pop up flash sucks for everything except sucky family shots from sucky
photographers. Period. I have the D200, and wouldn't use the pop up except
for shots I could give two shits about (even then, I'd just up the ISO). If
you want pop up flash, shoot with point and shoots, otherwise, you're
wasting your time.

Well ... there are times when it is nice to have it, when it is
just too heavy to carry a real flash (like my SB-800). An example
(during unofficial wedding photography at a day-after gathering)
included the sister of the bride and her to-be (now husband) hauled me
out of the building and wanted me to shoot them against the background
of the bay (Cape Cod Bay, FWIW). Unfortunately, the sunlight was at an
angle which was casting shadows on their faces, so I popped up the
built-in flash on the D70, and it did a very nice job as fill flash,
turning what could have been a ghastly shot into a rather nicely
balanced shot. Upping the ISO would not help here, since it was the
direction of the light which was the problem, rather than a sufficiency
of light.

I often (for shots of my cats) take two exposures -- the first
without built-in flash, and the second with, and typically prefer the
one without flash. Taking the time to dig the SB-800 out of the camera
bag is usually sufficient to lose the shot. :-)

But for anything serious, I would certainly prefer the SB-800 in
bounce mode. (Well ... there are the shots with the old Medical Nikkor,
which has a built-in ring flash, but that is a different game. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <***@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

ASAAR

2007-09-06 03:17:21 UTC

Post by Matt Clara

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for catch light or
fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to put such an
"amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's a cop-out for Canon and
Nikon not to include a pop-up flash in their pro cameras.

Randall, is this you? Was the reincarnation free of pain?

Rita Ä Berkowitz

2007-09-06 11:05:19 UTC

Post by Matt Clara
No, pop up flash sucks for everything except sucky family shots from
sucky photographers. Period. I have the D200, and wouldn't use the
pop up except for shots I could give two shits about (even then, I'd
just up the ISO). If you want pop up flash, shoot with point and
shoots, otherwise, you're wasting your time.

UTTER NONSENSE!

You simply don't know how to get the most out of your equipment. Had you
inquired first before demonstrating you don't know how to use your equipment
you would have found that Larry Thong's "Brazilian Micro Thong" light
diffuser boosts the onboard flash to that of the SB800.

Rita

Scott W

2007-09-06 13:31:52 UTC

I am of two minds of this, I generally don't like flash photos and
rarely use a flash. When I know I am going to use a flash I try to use
an external flash with a diffuser. Having said that there have been a
number of times when I have been caught without my external flash and
having the pop up flash was the only way to get a photo.

You seem to have a huge disdain for "sucky family shots", it kind of
sounds like you only view photography as worthwhile if it is artistic.
But I got to tell you that in time, say 20 to 30 years, "sucky family
shots" can end up having a lot of value. I had a grandmother who only
would take artistic photos, almost all landscape. She had good gear and
thought of herself as a good photographer, as did a lot of other people
at the time. She has been dead now for almost 30 years, and no one
could give a rats ass about her photos, it is a real shame that in with
all the artistic stuff she took she could not have been bothered to take
a few "sucky family shots", just something to think about.

Having said all that, for myself I would happily buy a DSLR without a
built in flash since I hardly ever use it, but I have to say there have
been a couple of times I was really glad to have had it.

Scott

acl

2007-09-07 00:14:55 UTC

Post by Scott W
You seem to have a huge disdain for "sucky family shots", it kind of
sounds like you only view photography as worthwhile if it is artistic.
But I got to tell you that in time, say 20 to 30 years, "sucky family
shots" can end up having a lot of value. I had a grandmother who only
would take artistic photos, almost all landscape. She had good gear and
thought of herself as a good photographer, as did a lot of other people
at the time. She has been dead now for almost 30 years, and no one
could give a rats ass about her photos, it is a real shame that in with
all the artistic stuff she took she could not have been bothered to take
a few "sucky family shots", just something to think about.

I got to thinking about this a few days ago. Most of my photos are
just photos of the places I live in and visit, and I don't think my
son (for example) will give a toss about them in 50 years. On the
other hand, I have a couple of otherwise ordinary photos of one of my
grandfathers during some military campaigns in the 1900s and 1910s,
which I greatly value. It certainly made me think.

j***@jamesphotography_nospam.ca

2007-09-06 17:25:09 UTC

Post by Matt Clara

Post by just bob
A year ago when the double-rebates were on I had a 5D for a while but
sold on ebay it as it was not going to replace my 1D (a used 1D2N did
that, for the same price) and the lack of a pop-up flash didn't make it
a good general use walk-around camera (my old 300D does that OK).

Fancy that! I think I've used the pop-up flash maybe three times,
twice to just see if it worked and once to check for that old
"streaks" bug.
If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for catch light or
fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to put such an
"amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's a cop-out for Canon and
Nikon not to include a pop-up flash in their pro cameras.

I was in a cave (Banff's Cave & Basin tourist spot) with my 30D and
didn't bring my 580, so I used the pop-up flash... to my surprise,
even though the cave was maybe about the size of a house - it
illuminated it quite nicely, even at 100 ISO. Not too shabby.

I've also used it as fill flash for wedding shots. Works great. Like
someone else said, you should learn to use your equipment...

jim

http://www.jamesphotography.ca

Mark B.

2007-09-06 10:23:38 UTC

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for catch light or
fill flash is a PITA.
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to put such an
"amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's a cop-out for Canon and
Nikon not to include a pop-up flash in their pro cameras.

The puny built-in is no substitute for a full-size flash. It's ok as fill
outdoors or very well-lit indoors, but as a primary light source it's no
good.

Mark

Wolfgang Weisselberg

2007-09-06 11:09:52 UTC

Post by Wolfgang Weisselberg
If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for
catch light or fill flash is a PITA.

If a flash unit is too heavy, go use a compact camera with an
inbuild flash --- because an DSLR is even heavier and larger.

Post by frederick
Hasselblad put a pop-up flash in the H3d - if it's okay to
put such an "amateur" feature in that camera, then IMO it's
a cop-out for Canon and Nikon not to include a pop-up flash
in their pro cameras.

Just because some people, who as ministers or judges should darn
well know that murder is wrong, commit the very same never the
less, is no reason for the other people to follow suit.

Or are you claimimg that Hasselblad cannot do wrong?

-Wolfgang

frederick

2007-09-06 12:46:39 UTC

Post by Wolfgang Weisselberg
If I need flash, I can just as well use a swivel and tilt flash
head with enough power for bouncing.

Lugging an accessory flash around for occasional use for
catch light or fill flash is a PITA.

If a flash unit is too heavy, go use a compact camera with an
inbuild flash --- because an DSLR is even heavier and larger.

Just because some people, who as ministers or judges should darn
well know that murder is wrong, commit the very same never the
less, is no reason for the other people to follow suit.
Or are you claimimg that Hasselblad cannot do wrong?

No. I expect that Hasselblad know that even a small pop-up
flash can work reasonably well as a direct fill flash, and
as a catch-light flash, the small diffuser is possibly even
an advantage in some cases over a larger flash unit.
It's not heaviness so much as an extra piece of equipment to
lug around in a bag. I don't like carrying equipment with me
that I'm unlikely to want to use. YMMV - but that doesn't
make your opinion correct.
The only valid reason I've seen posted so far not to have a
built in flash was that it's potentially a bit
fragile/exposed, and can pop up accidentally. Perhaps that
could be solved by designing them so that opening the flash
by touching a button could be disabled in the menu. I'd
never had an slr camera with a built in flash until I got a
dslr. I didn't have high expectations. Perhaps I find the
built in flash on a Nikon dslr useful because it works well
with iTTL, and is easy to set exposure comp. etc, and with D
lenses and 3d colour matrix metering produces very
acceptable results - within the limitations of the direct
and not very powerful unit that it is.

Wolfgang Weisselberg

2007-09-06 23:35:28 UTC

Just because some people, who as ministers or judges should darn
well know that murder is wrong, commit the very same never the
less, is no reason for the other people to follow suit.
Or are you claimimg that Hasselblad cannot do wrong?

No. I expect that Hasselblad know that even a small pop-up
flash can work reasonably well as a direct fill flash,

If I want "reasonably well", I don't buy Hasselblad.

Post by frederick
and as a catch-light flash, the small diffuser is possibly even an
advantage in some cases over a larger flash unit.

Any other straws lying around?

Post by frederick
It's not heaviness so much as an extra piece of equipment to
lug around in a bag.

You need a better bag.

Post by frederick
I don't like carrying equipment with me that I'm unlikely to want to
use.

I am extremely unlikely to use the pop up flash, and I cannot
even leave it at home nor not buy it in first place. So there.

Post by frederick
YMMV - but that doesn't make your opinion correct.

Nor does it make your oppinion correct.

Post by frederick
The only valid reason I've seen posted so far not to have a
built in flash was that it's potentially a bit
fragile/exposed, and can pop up accidentally.

Let's add: There are many places where flash is frowned
upon. You can show your camera and say: See? No flash.

Let's add: it's yet another "feature" to be controlled,
needing another dedicated button or menu slot.

-Wolfgang

frederick

2007-09-07 01:36:12 UTC

Just because some people, who as ministers or judges should darn
well know that murder is wrong, commit the very same never the
less, is no reason for the other people to follow suit.
Or are you claimimg that Hasselblad cannot do wrong?

No. I expect that Hasselblad know that even a small pop-up
flash can work reasonably well as a direct fill flash,

If I want "reasonably well", I don't buy Hasselblad.

Exactly. That's why they include a pop up flash. You
appear to be able to do "reasonably well" without one.

Post by frederick
and as a catch-light flash, the small diffuser is possibly even an
advantage in some cases over a larger flash unit.

Any other straws lying around?

Post by frederick
It's not heaviness so much as an extra piece of equipment to
lug around in a bag.

You need a better bag.

On many occasions, I try not to "need" a bag at all. One
camera, two lenses - one in a pocket.

Post by frederick
I don't like carrying equipment with me that I'm unlikely to want to
use.

I am extremely unlikely to use the pop up flash, and I cannot
even leave it at home nor not buy it in first place. So there.

You're "extremely unlikely" to use the pop up flash because
your camera hasn't got one.

Post by frederick
YMMV - but that doesn't make your opinion correct.

Nor does it make your oppinion correct.

Post by frederick
The only valid reason I've seen posted so far not to have a
built in flash was that it's potentially a bit
fragile/exposed, and can pop up accidentally.

Let's add: There are many places where flash is frowned
upon. You can show your camera and say: See? No flash.

I've never struck that.

Post by Wolfgang Weisselberg
Let's add: it's yet another "feature" to be controlled,
needing another dedicated button or menu slot.

Get over it. There are many features I never use in the
menu. The button that pops up the flash is the same button
used to control flash settings with.

Wolfgang Weisselberg

2007-09-07 14:58:27 UTC

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems.]

Post by frederick
No. I expect that Hasselblad know that even a small pop-up
flash can work reasonably well as a direct fill flash,

If I want "reasonably well", I don't buy Hasselblad.

Exactly. That's why they include a pop up flash. You
appear to be able to do "reasonably well" without one.

You misread me. If I buy Hasselblad, I want "excellent", not
"reasonably well". "reasonably well" is a higher end compact
camera or a low end DSLR on full auto.

Post by frederick
It's not heaviness so much as an extra piece of equipment to
lug around in a bag.

You need a better bag.

On many occasions, I try not to "need" a bag at all. One
camera, two lenses - one in a pocket.

Use a compact camera, then; no need to carry a second lens and
it has an inbuilt flash.

Post by frederick
I don't like carrying equipment with me that I'm unlikely to want to
use.

I am extremely unlikely to use the pop up flash, and I cannot
even leave it at home nor not buy it in first place. So there.

You're "extremely unlikely" to use the pop up flash because
your camera hasn't got one.

Wheee! I now have a 20D _without_ a pop up flash.
Oops, belay that, my camera says it _still_ has a pop up flash.
Darn.

You really had me confused there for a moment.

Post by frederick
The only valid reason I've seen posted so far not to have a
built in flash was that it's potentially a bit
fragile/exposed, and can pop up accidentally.

Let's add: There are many places where flash is frowned
upon. You can show your camera and say: See? No flash.

I've never struck that.

So? I've never felt a need for a pop-up flash in a DSLR, so
there.

Post by Wolfgang Weisselberg
Let's add: it's yet another "feature" to be controlled,
needing another dedicated button or menu slot.

Get over it. There are many features I never use in the
menu. The button that pops up the flash is the same button
used to control flash settings with.

Oh, an overlaid button. Fancy that --- and all that for
something I don't need.

-Wolfgang

RichA

2007-09-08 01:29:05 UTC

Post by Dave Cohen

Post by Mark
http://snipr.com/CanonEOS5D

Well you ARE in luck! Here is the neighbourhood where the garage
sales are held!! Dozens of "reputable" garage salers just for YOU!
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/

Mark

2007-09-08 16:42:32 UTC